Job 35 ...
Elihu continued ...
Then Elihu said:
Do you think it is right for you to claim,
‘I am righteous before God’?
For you also ask, ‘What’s in it for me?
What’s the use of living a righteous life?’
As you can see, am using a more contemporary translation today!
Elihu seemed to be putting up a bit of a straw man here. I don't know if Job has gone this far. I guess I'd summarize Job's situation as, I'm not perfect, without sin, but I've tried to live rightly and right now it seems that whether I live right or not, I'm suffering!
I will answer you
and all your friends, too.
Look up into the sky,
and see the clouds high above you.
If you sin, how does that affect God?
Even if you sin again and again,
what effect will it have on him?
If you are good, is this some great gift to him?
What could you possibly give him?
No, your sins affect only people like yourself,
and your good deeds also affect only humans.
Elihu seemed to overstate here. On one hand, if we sin or don't sin, that doesn't change who God is. God is God and what we do or don't do has no impact on God's "godness." On the other hand, we have ample testimony from the rest of Scripture that God is pleased when we live rightly and saddened when we sin. Thus, in that sense, what we do matters to God.
People cry out when they are oppressed.
They groan beneath the power of the mighty.
Yet they don’t ask, ‘Where is God my Creator,
the one who gives songs in the night?
image source: http://science.howstuffworks.com/hubble6.htm
Where is the one who makes us smarter than the animals
and wiser than the birds of the sky?’
And when they cry out, God does not answer
because of their pride.
But it is wrong to say God doesn’t listen,
to say the Almighty isn’t concerned.
You say you can’t see him,
but he will bring justice if you will only wait.
You say he does not respond to sinners with anger
and is not greatly concerned about wickedness.
But you are talking nonsense, Job.
You have spoken like a fool.
Elihu backtracked on his earlier remarks that God doesn't care. Indeed, God does listen and justice will arrive (not necessarily on our timetable) and those who are evil who seem to escape now will eventually be called to account.
Lord of the universe, thank you that you have cared for us on this earth. You have given your laws in Scriptures and in our consciences. You have sent your Son as a demonstration of your love and initiative to restore your lost people. Injustice remains an ill in this world. I trust one day you will bring it fully to pass. Until then, help us who try to follow you to do justice, love mercy and do both with humility each day. Amen.
One Christian's observations, interpretations and applications of the Bible. Questions, doubts and the phrase, "I don't know" will show up here. There are other (and better) places to find academic treatments. What you'll find here is a personal journey through the Scriptures. Dust off that Bible, read along and feel free to comment!
Thursday, April 30, 2009
Tuesday, April 14, 2009
Job 34
Elihu continued in Job 34 ...
Elihu further answered and said:
“Hear my words, you wise men;
Give ear to me, you who have knowledge.
For the ear tests words
As the palate tastes food.
Let us choose justice for ourselves;
Let us know among ourselves what is good.
As a tangent, I can't but help but feel that in today's society, words seem to mean less. It is so easy to send an email where it is informal, casual and often filled with misspelled words and poor grammar. I'm guilty of this. Or text messaging where everything is truncated into short hand abbreviations and other moves to say keystrokes.
Elihu, agree or disagree with him, recognized that words have weight.
For Job has said, ‘I am righteous,
But God has taken away my justice;
Should I lie concerning my right?
My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.’
What man is like Job,
Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity,
And walks with wicked men?
For he has said, ‘It profits a man nothing
That he should delight in God.’
Very pointed pokes by Elihu. He restated Job's lament. Yes, a good key to communication; reflect back the content and emotion of what you have heard!
But the second half is a pretty severe beat down of Job. Not such a good thing to do in communicating with someone who is suffering.
Leaving aside the head slap, what theological point does Elihu bring up next?
Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.
Who gave Him charge over the earth?
Or who appointed Him over the whole world?
If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
Bottom line from Elihu: God is not evil and won't do injustice and so Job's claims that God is unfair is rebutted.
Elihu continued ...
If you have understanding, hear this;
Listen to the sound of my words:
Should one who hates justice govern?
Will you condemn Him who is most just?
Is it fitting to say to a king, ‘You are worthless,’
And to nobles, ‘You are wicked’?
Yet He is not partial to princes,
Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor;
For they are all the work of His hands.
In a moment they die, in the middle of the night;
The people are shaken and pass away;
The mighty are taken away without a hand.
More defense of God "the most just."
The strong defense of God's justice resonates with the intellectual part of me.
But I must say, I am moved by the word pictures of the fragility of human existence in the last part of the last two paragraphs .
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
.....
In a moment they die, in the middle of the night;
The people are shaken and pass away;
The mighty are taken away without a hand.
image source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Sand_sculpture.jpg/250px-Sand_sculpture.jpg
I can craft my life ... but fast or slow, it will be swept away.
For His eyes are on the ways of man,
And He sees all his steps.
There is no darkness nor shadow of death
Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
For He need not further consider a man,
That he should go before God in judgment.
He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,
So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him;
For He hears the cry of the afflicted.
When He gives quietness, who then can make trouble?
And when He hides His face, who then can see Him,
Whether it is against a nation or a man alone?—
That the hypocrite should not reign,
Lest the people be ensnared.
Theologically, God is considered omniscient.
Recently, some theologians in the open theism movement contract the meaning of omniscience away from God knowing the future. I'm not sure that is a valid move logically. Because since Elihu argues for a linkage between God's justice and God's omniscience (e.g. God's justice can only happen because God is omniscient). Thus, would taking away God's knowledge of the future be injurious to God's justice?
I have sympathy with open theism's attempt to address free will and theodicy but I am concerned it might compromise God's justice. Thoughts anyone?
Elihu sums up this part of his monologue with more hits on Job.
For has anyone said to God,
‘I have borne chastening;
I will offend no more;
Teach me what I do not see;
If I have done iniquity, I will do no more’?
Should He repay it according to your terms,
Just because you disavow it?
You must choose, and not I;
Therefore speak what you know.
Men of understanding say to me,
Wise men who listen to me:
‘Job speaks without knowledge,
His words are without wisdom.’
Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost,
Because his answers are like those of wicked men!
For he adds rebellion to his sin;
He claps his hands among us,
And multiplies his words against God.
One of the things we have to remember when we call the Bible, God's word: there are human words and actions which may run counter to what God wants. And so those negative things are in the Bible to show us deeds and ideas that are wrong which we should learn to avoid.
I think Elihu makes some good theological point but he seems less than helpful in the sympathy dimension. But he hits an important point here at the end: Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom. Job is without knowledge of some parts of Job 1-2. Now, would that knowledge make him feel any better? I don't know. Maybe not. And because of his deep physical and emotional pain, he is brutally honest with God and so should we expect his words to be "wise?" The point maybe not so much about answers to suffering but expressing how a faithful man wrestles with suffering.
Lord, I look around the world and see wickedness in every corner. I have to trust that you see all of this and will one day bring about justice. Grant me wisdom to do what little I can where I can to bring justice. Enable me with insight to know when to share theology with people in love and when to simply share love. Amen.
Elihu further answered and said:
“Hear my words, you wise men;
Give ear to me, you who have knowledge.
For the ear tests words
As the palate tastes food.
Let us choose justice for ourselves;
Let us know among ourselves what is good.
As a tangent, I can't but help but feel that in today's society, words seem to mean less. It is so easy to send an email where it is informal, casual and often filled with misspelled words and poor grammar. I'm guilty of this. Or text messaging where everything is truncated into short hand abbreviations and other moves to say keystrokes.
Elihu, agree or disagree with him, recognized that words have weight.
For Job has said, ‘I am righteous,
But God has taken away my justice;
Should I lie concerning my right?
My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.’
What man is like Job,
Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity,
And walks with wicked men?
For he has said, ‘It profits a man nothing
That he should delight in God.’
Very pointed pokes by Elihu. He restated Job's lament. Yes, a good key to communication; reflect back the content and emotion of what you have heard!
But the second half is a pretty severe beat down of Job. Not such a good thing to do in communicating with someone who is suffering.
Leaving aside the head slap, what theological point does Elihu bring up next?
Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.
Who gave Him charge over the earth?
Or who appointed Him over the whole world?
If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
Bottom line from Elihu: God is not evil and won't do injustice and so Job's claims that God is unfair is rebutted.
Elihu continued ...
If you have understanding, hear this;
Listen to the sound of my words:
Should one who hates justice govern?
Will you condemn Him who is most just?
Is it fitting to say to a king, ‘You are worthless,’
And to nobles, ‘You are wicked’?
Yet He is not partial to princes,
Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor;
For they are all the work of His hands.
In a moment they die, in the middle of the night;
The people are shaken and pass away;
The mighty are taken away without a hand.
More defense of God "the most just."
The strong defense of God's justice resonates with the intellectual part of me.
But I must say, I am moved by the word pictures of the fragility of human existence in the last part of the last two paragraphs .
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
.....
In a moment they die, in the middle of the night;
The people are shaken and pass away;
The mighty are taken away without a hand.
image source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Sand_sculpture.jpg/250px-Sand_sculpture.jpg
I can craft my life ... but fast or slow, it will be swept away.
For His eyes are on the ways of man,
And He sees all his steps.
There is no darkness nor shadow of death
Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
For He need not further consider a man,
That he should go before God in judgment.
He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,
So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him;
For He hears the cry of the afflicted.
When He gives quietness, who then can make trouble?
And when He hides His face, who then can see Him,
Whether it is against a nation or a man alone?—
That the hypocrite should not reign,
Lest the people be ensnared.
Theologically, God is considered omniscient.
Recently, some theologians in the open theism movement contract the meaning of omniscience away from God knowing the future. I'm not sure that is a valid move logically. Because since Elihu argues for a linkage between God's justice and God's omniscience (e.g. God's justice can only happen because God is omniscient). Thus, would taking away God's knowledge of the future be injurious to God's justice?
I have sympathy with open theism's attempt to address free will and theodicy but I am concerned it might compromise God's justice. Thoughts anyone?
Elihu sums up this part of his monologue with more hits on Job.
For has anyone said to God,
‘I have borne chastening;
I will offend no more;
Teach me what I do not see;
If I have done iniquity, I will do no more’?
Should He repay it according to your terms,
Just because you disavow it?
You must choose, and not I;
Therefore speak what you know.
Men of understanding say to me,
Wise men who listen to me:
‘Job speaks without knowledge,
His words are without wisdom.’
Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost,
Because his answers are like those of wicked men!
For he adds rebellion to his sin;
He claps his hands among us,
And multiplies his words against God.
One of the things we have to remember when we call the Bible, God's word: there are human words and actions which may run counter to what God wants. And so those negative things are in the Bible to show us deeds and ideas that are wrong which we should learn to avoid.
I think Elihu makes some good theological point but he seems less than helpful in the sympathy dimension. But he hits an important point here at the end: Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom. Job is without knowledge of some parts of Job 1-2. Now, would that knowledge make him feel any better? I don't know. Maybe not. And because of his deep physical and emotional pain, he is brutally honest with God and so should we expect his words to be "wise?" The point maybe not so much about answers to suffering but expressing how a faithful man wrestles with suffering.
Lord, I look around the world and see wickedness in every corner. I have to trust that you see all of this and will one day bring about justice. Grant me wisdom to do what little I can where I can to bring justice. Enable me with insight to know when to share theology with people in love and when to simply share love. Amen.
Saturday, April 11, 2009
Job 33
It is Holy Saturday as I write.
In the season of remembering what Jesus did on the Cross, Holy Saturday is the one I know the least.
In the Southern Baptist church that I grew up in, the special days of these season we marked were Palm Sunday which recalls Jesus entry in to Jerusalem. Good Friday, the day of Crucifixion. And Easter Sunday, the day of Resurrection.
In more liturgical churches, there is also Ash Wednesday which marks the beginning of Lent. The ashes marked on the forehead in the shape of a cross is a sign of repentance which is an essential element of preparing the believer in remembering the events of holy week.
There is also Maundy Thursday which recalls the last day before the Crucifixion with emphasis on the foot washing of the disciples, the Last Supper, the prayers at the Garden of Gethsemane and the betrayal by Judas.
And lastly, there is Holy Saturday where in the more liturgical churches the services held are very sparse. This is in line with what the disciples would have felt on that day after the death of Jesus but prior to the Resurrection.
And so, I find myself drawn back to the tale of Job.
In a sense, we live in Holy Saturday. The work of Jesus, the Christ has been done on the Cross, yet we await His return in full glory. We live with trust in the significance of the Cross and anticipation that His Return will release us from the sorrows of this life.
And so onto Job 33.
Elihu had been silent until Job 32. He would speak from Job 32-37.
Elihu is bold in his addressing Job directly:
But now, Job, listen to my words;
pay attention to everything I say.
I am about to open my mouth;
my words are on the tip of my tongue.
My words come from an upright heart;
my lips sincerely speak what I know.
The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Answer me then, if you can;
stand up and argue your case before me.
But I do appreciate Elihu's humility in the next few lines:
I am the same as you in God's sight;
I too am a piece of clay.
No fear of me should alarm you,
nor should my hand be heavy on you.
Nonetheless, Elihu is concerned about some of the things Job had said in his monologues.
But you have said in my hearing—
I heard the very words—
I am pure, I have done no wrong;
I am clean and free from sin.
Yet God has found fault with me;
he considers me his enemy.
He fastens my feet in shackles;
he keeps close watch on all my paths.
But I tell you, in this you are not right,
for God is greater than any mortal.
Thanks to the study notes in Zondervan's NIV Study Bible, I'm reminded that Job did not actually claim to be sinless (see Job 7:21 and 13:26) but rather that as far as he knows he has acknowledged all his sins and that he has avoided egregious sins.
Why do you complain to him
that he responds to no one's words?
For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though no one perceives it.
In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on people
as they slumber in their beds,
he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
to turn them from wrongdoing
and keep them from pride,
to preserve them from the pit,
their lives from perishing by the sword.
Elihu tries to counter Job's assertion that God is silent.
image source:
http://www.ncbusinesslitigationreport.com/danger%20sign.jpg
Indeed, one ongoing question for those who believe in God is how does God "speak" to me?
Elihu here seems to be arguing that God speaks to us in the voice of the conscience to keep us away from wrongdoing, pride, the pit and perishing by the sword.
Elihu continued on this theme:
Or they may be chastened on a bed of pain
with constant distress in their bones,
so that their bodies find food repulsive
and their souls loathe the choicest meal.
Their flesh wastes away to nothing,
and their bones, once hidden, now stick out.
They draw near to the pit,
and their lives to the messengers of death.
And thus, pain is another "messenger" of God to steer us onto the correct path.
Reminds me of a C.S. Lewis quote ...
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world."
Elihu then addressed the possibility of rescue apart from "self rescue."
Yet if there is an angel at their side,
a messenger, one out of a thousand,
sent to tell them how to be upright,
and he is gracious to them and says to God,
'Spare them from going down to the pit;
I have found a ransom for them—
let their flesh be renewed like a child's;
let them be restored as in the days of their youth'—
then they can pray to God and find favor with him,
they will see God's face and shout for joy;
he will restore them to full well-being.
And they will go to others and say,
'We have sinned, we have perverted what is right,
but we did not get what we deserved.
God has delivered us from going down to the pit,
and we shall live to enjoy the light of life.'
"God does all these things to people—
twice, even three times—
to turn them back from the pit,
that the light of life may shine on them.
"Pay attention, Job, and listen to me;
be silent, and I will speak.
If you have anything to say, answer me;
speak up, for I want to vindicate you.
But if not, then listen to me;
be silent, and I will teach you wisdom."
The great "R" words of the Bible: rescue, ransom, renewal, restoration, reconciliation.
image source:
http://www.outtatown.com/photos/06site2/wp-content/photos/the_cross.jpg
And so Elihu is telling Job that rescue, ransom, renewal, restoration, reconciliation is all possible.
For us today, on this Holy Saturday, we know that it has been done at the Cross. But we still suffer. We await the completion of the rescue, ransom, renewal, restoration, reconciliation.
The prayer for Holy Saturday from the Book of Common Prayer:
O God, Creator of heaven and earth: Grant that, as the
crucified body of your dear Son was laid in the tomb and
rested on this holy Sabbath, so we may await with him the
coming of the third day, and rise with him to newness of
life; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever. Amen.
In the season of remembering what Jesus did on the Cross, Holy Saturday is the one I know the least.
In the Southern Baptist church that I grew up in, the special days of these season we marked were Palm Sunday which recalls Jesus entry in to Jerusalem. Good Friday, the day of Crucifixion. And Easter Sunday, the day of Resurrection.
In more liturgical churches, there is also Ash Wednesday which marks the beginning of Lent. The ashes marked on the forehead in the shape of a cross is a sign of repentance which is an essential element of preparing the believer in remembering the events of holy week.
There is also Maundy Thursday which recalls the last day before the Crucifixion with emphasis on the foot washing of the disciples, the Last Supper, the prayers at the Garden of Gethsemane and the betrayal by Judas.
And lastly, there is Holy Saturday where in the more liturgical churches the services held are very sparse. This is in line with what the disciples would have felt on that day after the death of Jesus but prior to the Resurrection.
And so, I find myself drawn back to the tale of Job.
In a sense, we live in Holy Saturday. The work of Jesus, the Christ has been done on the Cross, yet we await His return in full glory. We live with trust in the significance of the Cross and anticipation that His Return will release us from the sorrows of this life.
And so onto Job 33.
Elihu had been silent until Job 32. He would speak from Job 32-37.
Elihu is bold in his addressing Job directly:
But now, Job, listen to my words;
pay attention to everything I say.
I am about to open my mouth;
my words are on the tip of my tongue.
My words come from an upright heart;
my lips sincerely speak what I know.
The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Answer me then, if you can;
stand up and argue your case before me.
But I do appreciate Elihu's humility in the next few lines:
I am the same as you in God's sight;
I too am a piece of clay.
No fear of me should alarm you,
nor should my hand be heavy on you.
Nonetheless, Elihu is concerned about some of the things Job had said in his monologues.
But you have said in my hearing—
I heard the very words—
I am pure, I have done no wrong;
I am clean and free from sin.
Yet God has found fault with me;
he considers me his enemy.
He fastens my feet in shackles;
he keeps close watch on all my paths.
But I tell you, in this you are not right,
for God is greater than any mortal.
Thanks to the study notes in Zondervan's NIV Study Bible, I'm reminded that Job did not actually claim to be sinless (see Job 7:21 and 13:26) but rather that as far as he knows he has acknowledged all his sins and that he has avoided egregious sins.
Why do you complain to him
that he responds to no one's words?
For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though no one perceives it.
In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on people
as they slumber in their beds,
he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
to turn them from wrongdoing
and keep them from pride,
to preserve them from the pit,
their lives from perishing by the sword.
Elihu tries to counter Job's assertion that God is silent.
image source:
http://www.ncbusinesslitigationreport.com/danger%20sign.jpg
Indeed, one ongoing question for those who believe in God is how does God "speak" to me?
Elihu here seems to be arguing that God speaks to us in the voice of the conscience to keep us away from wrongdoing, pride, the pit and perishing by the sword.
Elihu continued on this theme:
Or they may be chastened on a bed of pain
with constant distress in their bones,
so that their bodies find food repulsive
and their souls loathe the choicest meal.
Their flesh wastes away to nothing,
and their bones, once hidden, now stick out.
They draw near to the pit,
and their lives to the messengers of death.
And thus, pain is another "messenger" of God to steer us onto the correct path.
Reminds me of a C.S. Lewis quote ...
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world."
Elihu then addressed the possibility of rescue apart from "self rescue."
Yet if there is an angel at their side,
a messenger, one out of a thousand,
sent to tell them how to be upright,
and he is gracious to them and says to God,
'Spare them from going down to the pit;
I have found a ransom for them—
let their flesh be renewed like a child's;
let them be restored as in the days of their youth'—
then they can pray to God and find favor with him,
they will see God's face and shout for joy;
he will restore them to full well-being.
And they will go to others and say,
'We have sinned, we have perverted what is right,
but we did not get what we deserved.
God has delivered us from going down to the pit,
and we shall live to enjoy the light of life.'
"God does all these things to people—
twice, even three times—
to turn them back from the pit,
that the light of life may shine on them.
"Pay attention, Job, and listen to me;
be silent, and I will speak.
If you have anything to say, answer me;
speak up, for I want to vindicate you.
But if not, then listen to me;
be silent, and I will teach you wisdom."
The great "R" words of the Bible: rescue, ransom, renewal, restoration, reconciliation.
image source:
http://www.outtatown.com/photos/06site2/wp-content/photos/the_cross.jpg
And so Elihu is telling Job that rescue, ransom, renewal, restoration, reconciliation is all possible.
For us today, on this Holy Saturday, we know that it has been done at the Cross. But we still suffer. We await the completion of the rescue, ransom, renewal, restoration, reconciliation.
The prayer for Holy Saturday from the Book of Common Prayer:
O God, Creator of heaven and earth: Grant that, as the
crucified body of your dear Son was laid in the tomb and
rested on this holy Sabbath, so we may await with him the
coming of the third day, and rise with him to newness of
life; who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever. Amen.
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